[BNM] 1, 2, 3, 4, I declare a language war ! (was Hot news: Microsoft buys OScommerce!)

[paul perrin]

Just picking up on the 'Abstraction is always good' line...

I don't agree that it is always good -- it often encourages people to use
the wrong tools for the job... If you can abstract everything to look like a
nail, then you only need a hammer in your tool box. But if you are in fact
hammering in everything including screws and bolts you are losing some of
their specific benefits.

I saw a bit of code that took some data from a database, extracted a date,
added a day to it and then wrote it back.

The date was physically held in the database in a 'days since' format - so
 (One line of SQL if you don't abstract it any further than relational
tables). However it actually went somehting like this - the date was held in
the database as an integer, the data later translated this to UCT time, the
application layer translated this to a GMT time, the UI layer translated
this to a local time, then the programmer used some client side javascript
to convert this to a serial time to add a day and then convert it back to
local time and then - if an update was required, it then followed the path
in reverse...

Everyone abstracted at their layer for their own reasons, but in the end it
would have been better to go straight through - I blame the architect (if
there was one!).

Paul /)/+)


On 06/07/07, Antony Jones <antonyj at gamesys.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > The other thing I like about ASP.NET <http://asp.net/> is the fact that
> you would have to
> > go out of your way to write crap - or be seriously lazy. The fact that,
> > unless you wanted to do some rewriting of the wheel, you are pretty much
> > forced to use an MVC approach to writing code, which forces nice,
> > modular, loosely coupled, consistent code.
>
> Wow, sounds just like J2EE. Odd! :P
>
> > .NET is now a mature framework, coupled with C# (and all the funky
> > language enhancements in .NET 3.5) you have a stable, productive, high
> > performance set of tools. I'm not saying it's as good as say Java on
> > some huge mainframe it probably never will be.
>
> There's no reason the language couldn't be. I'm sure MS are capable of
> doing things right and I think .NET is done right.
>
> But, doing things "right" by Microsoft means running it on Windows, and
> that's where without a shadow of an argument, and I've debated this long and
> hard with a lot of people both pro and anti, you're f£$^(**d.
>
> Windows is not a good production environment, as hard as it tried. And
> thinking about it, it isn't a good development environment either. Man, why
> does anyone use it?
>
> > Extending ASP.NET <http://asp.net/> using providers etc means everyone
> talks the same
> > language, in the same style and the learning curve is fast but you don't
> > lose the expressiveness as the lower level parts of the framework are
> > there, just not at the level you'd enter it in.
>
> Abstraction is always a good thing, but it doesn't mean you can't use it
> in PHP if you want to.
>
> > As with any OS project, PHP lacks this structure - which is
> > understandable as it's been contributed to by so many developers - like
> > the help docs in Linux - a rabbit hole I've found myself in many a time.
>
> Rubbish. Are you telling me that Linux lacks structure? As opposed to
> windows? Come on. FreeBSD lack structure? Seriously. Windows lacks structure
> because nobody else knows :) ODF lacks structure!?
>
> > PHP - what I've seen of it, looks like ASP classic, tags with code in
> > the html etc.
>
> Anybody who codes PHP like that nowadays is a fool who doesn't know what's
> best for them. I've been coding PHP with a proper MVC for like... 10 years
> now.
>
> > I don't like the monopolization as much as anyone - which is why I'm
> > taking up MONO. But even then - I'm holding back as I know that has
> > serious flaws. Maybe get back into Java - as far as I know you can
> > implement MVC and DI through Spring?
>
> I'm glad you're taking up MONO, but the truth of the matter is that MONO
> shouldn't have to exist. Even the most junior developer can write
> cross-platform code, Microsoft have NO excuse, and I'm not paying for,
> encouraging, or in any way associating myself with that.
>
> > Just my (admittedly biased) view.
>
> And mine. We all have preferences.
>
> Antony Jones
> Developer
>
> Gamesys Limited
> e: antonyj at gamesys.co.uk
> t: 0207 478 8103
> a: 1st Floor, 54-62 Regent Street, LONDON, W1B 5RE
>
> Save trees and protect the environment - think before you print this
> email!
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: bnmlist-bounces at brightonnewmedia.org [mailto:bnmlist-
> > bounces at brightonnewmedia.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Douglas
> > Sent: 06 July 2007 13:45
> > To: Brighton New Media
> > Subject: Re: [BNM] 1, 2, 3, 4, I declare a language war ! (was Hot news:
> > Microsoft buys OScommerce!)
> >
> > Mark Ng wrote:
> > > The solid majority of available open-source code written in PHP is
> > > absolute dog crap.  As for security flaws, most (most, not all)
> > > security flaws in PHP applications reflect the general quality of code
> > > written in PHP, rather than PHP itself (there have been one or two
> > > security flaws in PHP itself over the years, but not inordinately
> > > large numbers).
> > >
> > > Also, .NET and PHP aren't equal comparisons - one is a framework,
> > > another is a language.
> > >
> > > Eclipse is horrid.  Lots of great features, but a horrid UI and I've
> > > ranted about instability of various JVM's on many other occasions.
> > >
> > > Textmate is my favourite means of writing PHP code.  the presence of
> > > textmate is the one thing that stopped me returning my macbook and
> > > buying a dell instead about 3 months ago when I had all sorts of
> > > problems with it.
> > > [...]
> > The other thing I like about ASP.NET <http://asp.net/> is the fact that
> you would have to
> > go out of your way to write crap - or be seriously lazy. The fact that,
> > unless you wanted to do some rewriting of the wheel, you are pretty much
>
> > forced to use an MVC approach to writing code, which forces nice,
> > modular, loosely coupled, consistent code.
> >
> > .NET is now a mature framework, coupled with C# (and all the funky
> > language enhancements in .NET 3.5) you have a stable, productive, high
> > performance set of tools. I'm not saying it's as good as say Java on
> > some huge mainframe it probably never will be.
> >
> > Extending ASP.NET <http://asp.net/> using providers etc means everyone
> talks the same
> > language, in the same style and the learning curve is fast but you don't
> > lose the expressiveness as the lower level parts of the framework are
> > there, just not at the level you'd enter it in.
> >
> > As with any OS project, PHP lacks this structure - which is
> > understandable as it's been contributed to by so many developers - like
> > the help docs in Linux - a rabbit hole I've found myself in many a time.
> >
> > PHP - what I've seen of it, looks like ASP classic, tags with code in
> > the html etc.
> >
> > I don't like the monopolization as much as anyone - which is why I'm
> > taking up MONO. But even then - I'm holding back as I know that has
> > serious flaws. Maybe get back into Java - as far as I know you can
> > implement MVC and DI through Spring?
> >
> > Just my (admittedly biased) view.
> >
> > w://
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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